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3rd Party Religious Contradictions on Men in skirts

This page is covering a selection of 3rd party articles on Deuteronomy 22:5 and men in skirts. It is often cited within the religious world towards men but never towards women and there move into male style clothing.

At the end of the day in this modern era I, and other men like me should be just like everyone else. Embrace freedom of choice, freedom of expression and be an individual in a supposedly modern and open society. A society that has supposedly developed and matured over the millenias! Also these are the exact same principles others claim when it suits. With regards religions, they contradict themselves both within and out of their worlds. If one is to quote, for Christians from the Bible, then enact the Bible as it says, no cherry picking. 

In "westernised" areas of the world, when Deuteronomy 22.5 is in discussions on skirts for men, trousers for women it should be explained as to why women are exempt especially women who attend church in trousers! I do not think anyone can quote the Bible for society behaviour when religion often twists relevant quotes to suit its own needs. Deuteronomy arguments are widely interpreted as too how one wants. The Bible was written some 400 years after the event, in Latin, and not transcribed into English until 1611. This opens interpretations to questions, old word, old meanings etc to new modern words, thinkings etc. As is usual with any debates on change of fashion for women, it will always be justified, but not so for men. At the end of this page are some links on religous discussions regarding Deuteronomy 22:5. I find Jason Youngs of interest as well as the letter to Dr Laura. 

I tend to find blogs written by 'Christians' on the subject of skirts/trousers are very biased in favour that the Bible allows women to do whatever. I have given up posting comments on such Christian based blogs as they are never posted even though mine simply give an opposite aspect and are polite. I do not spend too much time researching the religious circles on this subject and this page certainly gives enough. 

Many who follow religious beliefs invariable do not practice what they preach themselves, especially if it is to their advantage. I know many a church goer in life who frown upon men in skirts yet not for women in trousers. I also know many Christians directly in my life who are very accepting and have no issue. I'm sure this applies to the many other religions around the world. As always it is down to ones interpretation, perception and preference.

All religions to me have an obsession with interpreting and quoting their religous books, Bible for Christians, Quran (Koran) for Muslims etc to suit them, what they want or expect.

John 20:29 comes to mind here - King James Bible version - "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." New International Version - "Then Jesus told him, 'because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.'" To me this shows following religion to the enth degree is not only ignorance but blind faith.

Many in the Western world of Christianty often quote that being Gay or Lesbian is an abomination of God. They also say the same to men in skirts yet not to women in trousers or other traditional male style clothing. So to is unrighteous, fornicators, idolators, adulterers, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners - King James Bible. Even the New International Version states wrongdoers, idolators, adulterers, thieving, greed, drunkards, slanderers, swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God - 1 Corinthians 6 9-10. This cuts out the vast majority of western civilisation and that includes many Christians. Many Christians look for and quote extracts from the Bible to suit their own interpretation yet the Bible contradicts itself and is based upon human intelligence and interpretaion of some 2000 years ago! I have even heard some say, yes the Bible does say God loves all but that doesn't mean to say that God agrees. The Bible does say God loves all but it doesn't about not agreeing, that is a classic of human additions to suit their own personal point of view. With regards the negativity towards Gay/Lesbians it refers to Homosexuality in 5 places: Genesis 19; Leviticus 18 & 19; Romans 1 18-32; 1 Corinthians 6 9-10; 1 Timothy 1 8-10. I'm not making any links here as Gay/Lesbian is a separate issue to this site not that I am against Gay/Lesbian. I support them and from my experience find them on the whole far more open minded and very even tolerant than many Hetrosexuals.

Perhaps if the Bible is to be quoted then lets try "Judge not, that ye be not judged" Matthew 7:1 King James Bible version. New International Version states "Do not judge, or you too will be judged".

On the 22nd October, 2013, the Archbishop of Canterbury - The Most Reverend Justin Welby - was reported in the media of the UK about the baptism of Prince George on the 23rd October, inparticular 'he hoped that people would not view baptism as only for a future king or ”special people“, adding that God "doesn't care who we are".' This appeared in the Daily Telegraph web site.

 

I came across an article in 2011 when this site of mine was first set up dated 23rd March 2011. The particular article entitled: Skirts vs. Pants has since been deleted but the True Feminity blogspot is still active last time I looked www.truefemininity.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/skirts-vs-pants.html. I have pasted the original article, not the photos in my Addendum at the end of this page on my web site. (I had taken screen shots at the time!) The article was well written and presented by a young American woman who believes in her femininity and preference to wear skirts but with the option to wear pants - trousers in the UK - when it suits. She is a devote Christian and lives her life "seeking to please God by following in his plan for beautiful womanhood" which I commend her for and do not question her as an individual. However, she makes reference to Deuteronomy 22.5 and states why it does not exclude women from wearing pants - trousers. She also makes this statement Though pants have fallen into common usage today, I believe it would have been wrong for Christian women of that day to have participated in such a rebellious and shocking movement” even though she admits to wearing pants - trousersThe whole article of debate about skirts/trousers was slanted towards women and providing justification for dual clothing roles for women but does state that at the time of Christ men did wear skirted/dress style clothing. She states that clothing choices vary depending upon cultures, and changes in fashion and as western womens fashion has chnaged to trousers it is now OK for women to embrace them in our culture. On the whole, the justification of 22.5 in her arguments are just as well placed for men in their arguments why 22.5 is misinterpreted, either that or it is another example of how women interpret quotations/expectations in the pursuit of their own goals. The 20 comments posted by 29th March 2011 the date the original paragraph/link was added to my site were all from women complimenting the writer about her view points.

This blog I Wear Skirts and Dresses I came across on 8th July 2014 is very similar, again Deuteronomy 22-5 allows women but not men and this blogger says that Deuteronmy 22.5 was written specifically for men who emulate women eg Drag Queens. But we have Drag Kings, just as much as we have male strip clubs for females. Why is it always OK for women, but not for the man. I have pasted the original article, not the photos in my Addendum at the end of this page on my web site.

 

Perhaps many Christians, especially Christian women who like to quote the Bible should look at Ephesians 5:22 to 5:23 "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husbannd is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church, his body, of which he is the savior" or 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 "To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divirce his wife." Perhaps 1 Timothy2:9 "I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes." and1 Peter 3:3 "Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes." The quotes in this paragraph are the New International Version of the Bible.

 

Thought for Pause, the daily short slot for a religious person to talk about a subject on BBC Radio 2 Breakfast Show, I very rarely hear. Only if I am in the car enroute somewhere. On Tuesday 24th April 2012 at around 9.20 am I was in that very rare situation and Rabbi Pete Tobias was speaking. In his short talk he was talking about questions raised at a recent biannual conference. One question was "why if there is a God is there so much injustice and suffering in our world" He went on to say "true religion is about trying to change the faults in our world and improve it". It is a pity from my experience of religion that it is not practiced in the real world. It may be said at conferences, place of worship or interviews, and I will accept some will follow their lives as such but there is so much hypocracy and intolerance by others who claim to speak on behalf of their religion to make me realise that it is only talk.

 

Interesting 3rd Party Links Regarding Deuteronomy 22.5 and Addendum for Three Individual Articles as stated Above

 

a) This article written by Jason Young, is giving interpretations and discusses on misinterpretations. It twists and turns but in the end it states it is still OK for women to change to trousers as it is a change in fashion only, not trying to become manly. It is also not wrong for men to wear skirts depending on cultures but as our culture now firmly has men in trousers it is not a fashion change for them to wear skirts. The logic as so often does not apply evenly.

b) This is an open letter to Dr Laura, who is/was a radio personality and I understand this letter came into being around May 2000. This link Background to the Letter Dr Laura provides details of it's internet circulation since. Finding this link I updated this section of this page. It basically highlights contradictions in a particular section of the Old Testament, the same section of the Bible that Deuteronomy 22.5 can be found, the section regularly quoted at men in skirts by Christians who object. but I originally came across it during 2011 when posted on a site discussing religious objections to men in skirts. I copy the reply on post here, but a direct copy of the original letter follows in the Addendum at the end of this page on my web site.

Just Me says:

June 19, 2011 at 1:50 pm

Wear a skirt if you want, just choose a flattering length. As for randomly obeying biblical laws, let me address that with an excerpt from an open letter to Dr. Laura, author unknown:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learnt a great deal from your show and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it is an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God’s Laws and how to follow them.

1.Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies only to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

2.I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3.I know I’m not allowed contact with a woman during her period of menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I tried asking, but got biffed across the chops for my trouble.

4.When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. The odour annoys the hell out of them. Should I smite them?

5.I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6.A friend of mine feels that although eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10, he feels it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees’ of abomination?

7.Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? (TheSkirtedMan added 21-17 to 21-21)

8.Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9.I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but can I still play football if I wear gloves?

10.My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Your adoring fan,


I add look at Leviticus 19:26  "do not eat any meat with blood still in it" and Leviticus 19:28 "do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD" as well.

I conclude the comment by JustMe, 19th June, 2011 sums up the laws of the Bible very well. I’m sure there are plenty more within it!

a) Reverend David Horton -  http://www.gender.org.uk/gendys/1999/08hrton.htm


He discusses Deuteronomy and other areas of the bible.

b) Commentories on Deuteronomy 22.5 - http://www.gendertree.com/Deuteronomy.htm
This is a long list of interpretations from individuals including clergy on varying interpretaions. One states it refers to women only not bearing weapons!

c) Elisabeth Anne Kellogg http://www.whosoever.org/v3i3/deut.html

d) The Kiltmen site http://www.kiltmen.com/bible.htm

Addendum

 

A) The Text of the blog "Skirts vs Pants" 23rd March 2011, not including photographs.

 

Skirts vs. Pants

Many readers assume that I only wear skirts and dresses, and some have emailed me wanting to know about my stance on the issue of wearing pants. Are women only supposed to wear skirts? Is it wrong to wear pants? Growing up in the homeschooling community, I was exposed to views on both sides and had the opportunity to think and talk about this issue often.

As far as Scripture goes, the one most often used in such debates is Deuteronomy 22:5, which says:

A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your GOD detests anyone who does this.”

The main point behind this passage is that there is not to be any confusion between the genders. God created men to be men and women to be women. They are meant to be separate and different. When people are uncomfortable with their own gender, their clothing often starts to betray this fact. This should not be the case among the people of God, however. His people are to embrace the way He created them (gender included) and their clothing choices ought to demonstrate that to the rest of the world.

What this verse does not say is that women should wear dresses and skirts. It says that they should not wear men's clothing. The question then of course is, what is women,s clothing and what is men's clothing?

There is not a definitive answer that can be held to be true in every age and in every place. What is worn by women and men has differed across the globe and continues to differ even today in different countries. In some countries, it is customary for men to wear something like a “skirt.” My roommate's fiance went to India two years ago, and he still has his “lungi” a skirt-like piece of clothing that the men there wear. We can't even hold Biblical dress to be the standard that supports men wearing pants and women wearing skirts, because if men dressed as they did in Biblical times, they would still be wearing dress-like pieces of clothing.

This is why, to me, saying that skirts and dresses are the only choice for women and pants are the only choice for men is not an absolute truth. It does not hold true for all cultures and all time periods. It is not even what the Bible says.

Now then, if this is true, how do we know what we should wear? I believe that that it has to do with what culture and time period you live in. There is no way that any of us can deny that we know the difference between men's clothing and women's clothing. Even in today's society, when the look is becoming more androgynous, there is still a distinction, and hence the reason why there is a ladies' section and a men's section in every department store you enter.

Now, as we know, fashion changes with time, and as things fall in and out of common practice, what was once considered to be “men's clothing” may become “women's clothing”. There was a time when men wore shoes with high heels, tights, and even lace and it was considered appropriate clothing for men. Wearing tights as the picture below shows, would not be considered manly today, but it was appropriate at the time.

This is where I think that we as Christians ought to be careful. I don't believe it is our place to be on the forefront of such changes in fashion. Such changes often are first marked with rebellion and are confusing for the general populace to interpret. For instance, the movement to wear pants by women was not only considered very rebellious during the time, but it was also shockingly inappropriate. Though pants have fallen into common useage today, I believe it would have been wrong for Christian women of that day to have participated in such a rebellious and shocking movement. Notice that the issue is not necessarily as simple as the article of clothing, but it also needs to take into account the heart attitude as well as the statement conveyed to your culture.

At the time women were beginning to wear pants, showing a division between the legs was considered incredibly immodest. Today this is not viewed in the same light. In some cases, wearing skirts and dresses is actually more immodest and less appropriate.

Yesterday when I headed over to a dangerous neighborhood with my roommate to tutor underprivileged students, I knew that pants were the only sensible option. We are already conspicuous because of the difference between us and the rest of the people living in the neighborhood and wearing a skirt would only draw inappropriate attention and stares our way. In cases like this, blending in is a matter of safety and good sense.

Needless to say, I don't think that wearing pants is a sin or unbiblical. I do think that ladies shoud still use wisdom in what kind of pants they wear, making sure that they are not too tight and don't call too much attention to certain areas with flashy pockets, etc. As in wearing any article of clothing, we ought to determine whether it is wise and edifying to those who will see it before we put it on.

Of course, at the same time that I hold that wearing pants is not unbiblical, I also believe that skirts are more ladylike and feminine. I think it would be good if all women wore skirts, as I am usually of the opinion that they are more flattering and that women would look all the better for wearing them.

For me, there are many benefits that come from wearing skirts and dresses. When wearing skirts I am more aware that I am a woman, that I am different from men, and that I should behave as such. I am more aware of my posture when sitting and I take greater care to move in a ladylike way. I often notice that people treat me with much more civility in stores and other public places than I would otherwise receive. I feel freer and more comfortable than when I wearing pants, and I am warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer than I would be if I were not wearing a skirt.

Overall, I have found skirt wearing to be an edifying practice, but that does not mean that if I find wearing pants to be a sin in and of itself. Personally, I am very inclined to limit the times I wear pants, and of course I would encourage others to do so as well. But it's not necessarily a matter of holiness or sinning. There are immodest pants and there are immodest skirts. There are times when wearing pants draws inappropriate attention and times when skirts and dresses draws inappropriate attention.

In all cases and with everything we wear, we ought to use caution and good sense to determine if is appropriate for the situation and the people and or culture with which we will be interacting. And of course, keeping in line with Deuteronomy 22:5, our attire ought to show that we embrace God's plan to make the genders distinct, giving no one the occasion to wonder if we are man or a woman.  

 

B) The text of the blog "I Wear Skirts and Dresses" 7th July 2014, not including the photographs.

 

I Wear Skirts and Dresses

 

One of the most popular topics among women Christian bloggers is the issue of whether  women and girls should only wear skirts and dresses or is it ok to wear slacks/jeans. Some say Christian women should only wear skirts/dresses, others say it isn't a sin issue therefore it doesn't matter as long as the outfit remains modest. Others say skirts should be to the ground, others are happy at knee length. When you look across the blogs the responses are a mixed bag and it must be confusing to those women trying to decide which way to turn. 
So what do I think? This is my own personal convictions on the topic and I am not telling anyone else what to wear. 
I grew up wearing skirts/dresses almost exclusively. All the women in my family - young and old  - wore skirts and dresses. I simply wasn't allow to wear anything different. accepted this quite happierly as a child but as I got older (into my teens) it began to niggle me, partly because I began to stand out which wasn't something I enjoy at all (I preferred to blend into the crowd). Interestedly, none of us wore long skirts, we all wore knee length (or just above the knee during the mini-skirt period), long skirts were for hippies (I did grow up in the 1970's). 

I never saw my mother in pants until after she had her stroke in her 70s when wearing a skirt were too difficult to get on and off. 
When I left home I was very keen to throw off what I considered to be a legalist view point and started to wear jeans, pants and shorts. I wore pants for many years, however as I got older I moved back to skirts and dresses and now almost exclusively wear them.  It wasn't really until I looked at photos of myself in pants did I realise that I didn't look very feminine or pretty in pants and being a little overweight, they really didn't look good on me. 
So why do I wear skirts and dresses these days? For me: 
  • Skirts and dresses are feminine and I want to look feminine
  • Everyone wears jeans (or black trousers) and I find them to be very unfeminine, however they do have their purpose occasionally
  • Clothing has become very unisex and I want to be seen clearly as a woman in feminine outfits, for me this is in skirts and dresses. Wearing a skirt for me is a visual acknowledgement of my sex. 
  • I enjoy wearing skirts and dresses - and I wear long, knee length and everything in between
  • They are comfortable, cool in summer and warm in winter
Whether I wear a skirt or not, is not an issue for my husband, he doesn't mind what I wear (pants or skirts). However he isn't fond of what he calls "tent" skirts so I don't wear them very often (except in summer when I find them cool to wear). 
There is no bible verse to say that women cannot wear trousers.  However there are verses about the way we look and dress - to be modesty attired, to not be flashy in our clothing and not to spend lots of money and time consumed about our clothing as the more time we focuse on our external adornments takes precious time away from the Lord (1 Timothy 2:91 Peter 3:3-4).  A woman can dress just as modestly in slacks and a pretty top as in a skirt. Sadly for those women who do like to wear trousers, the current fashion for women is the very tight pants (as seen below) leaves nothing to the imagination. And for women who love wearing skirts - many modern day skirts are very in-modest and cover almost nothing at all. 
So what about Deuteronomy 22.5?

 A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.

From what I have read, this verse has more to do with cross-dressing (pretending to be of the opposite sex as in men dressing up as drag queens) which is why God saw it as an abomination (as He did with homosexuality). It isn't so much about women wearing trousers and most women who wear trousers are are not doing so to pretend to be a man (however, the style and cut of many women's trousers are very masculine as you can see above). Interestedly, men during biblical times wore robe like garments rather than the modern trousers. Their outfits (in design) would have been similar to what women were wearing. However women dressed up their outfits with jewels and other adornments. The clothing worn by men and women over time have been influenced by the culture they live in, men in Scotland wore the kilt and in parts of the Pacific (e.g. Solomon Island), men still wear something very similar to skirts and you certainly wouldn't say that these men were doing the wrong thing. 
Wearing trousers is a matter a woman's own conscience before the Lord. Women should not preach and boast about wearing skirts to make others feel guilty and accusing them of not taking their Christianity seriously. In the effort to be modest and discrete in dress, makeup and jewellery, we can easily become very rigid in our behaviour and see those who do not do as we do as wrong. We must not become legalist about our dress. And we should not go the opposite and dress in plain drab clothing thinking this will make God happier. 

Our true beauty is not our clothing or our jewels, it is our gentle and quiet spirit. Our outer beauty will fade with age (nothing we can do about that), but our hearts should be exceptionally beautiful, "precious in the sight of God" (1 Peter 3:4). 

Remember, one can dress in a skirt and behave in a very unChristian way, someone in jeans can have a heart of gold and walk the path of God with all her heart. We must not judge others by what they wear. 
 
C) Letter to Dr Laura

 

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

 

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